DeAndra Davis is an award-winning neurodivergent Jamaican American author whose books feature main characters as messy as she is. She loves 100%ing video games and reading worlds more interesting than her own. She has too many kids, dogs, and songs from Wicked on her phone.
Her new novel, The Lovers, The Liars and Me just came out on in bookstores everywhere. Actually on my birthday, June 23rd.
Watch Our Interview
Interview with DeAndra Davis
John Parker:
I have to say, I was just telling you before the show started, this cover, which I’m showing to our folks who are watching on YouTube right now, absolutely gorgeous. Congratulations.
DeAndra Davis:
No, thank you. I am so obsessed with it. And I think my actual favorite part is the back because when I was telling them what I really wanted, they asked me, they’re like, “Okay, what do you want in the cover? What do you want it to look like?” And I was like, “I would really, really love it if I could either put some rendition of Blue Hole or Duns River Balls on it.” And they just did such a good job of making that come to life. I really think it just looks gorgeous and I think it really captures the spirit of Jamaica, so I love it.
John Parker:
For sure. Well, all right then, let’s jump in. What can readers expect when they turn to page one of The Lovers, The Liars and Me?
DeAndra Davis:
I mean, when you turn to page one, you’re going to run into some tarot first of all, which I think, I mean, it’s so funny because I did another podcast and we had the whole big debate of, are you an astrology gay or a tarot gay? And I was like, both.
John Parker:
Both. DeAndra, both right here too.
DeAndra Davis:
Right? And so I think that that’s really, really fun. So you can expect Tarot on the front page. You can expect a little bit of anxiety. I’m a very, very anxious main character who is trying to figure out. She’s at that last week of school and really trying to figure out where she’s at and where she feels like she fits in the world. And so that’s what you can figure out on the first page. But oh goodness, as the pages continue, it gets a little messy.
John Parker:
Before we leave the tarot, I was interviewing a couple years ago a writer who actually used the tarot in his creative, I’m sorry, their creative writing. There was a transition there since I interviewed them last. Creative writing courses. They would use the tarot cards and then they’d give a tarot card to their students and say, “This is your prompt right here. Read about it and then tell a story.” And I thought that was just so amazing. So can we talk about writing culture? Because I’m Armenian American, actually you can’t tell from the name of John Parker, but I am. My family name is DerBoghossian on my mom’s side. And I spent a lot of time reading queer Armenian books, which there aren’t a lot of unfortunately, but it’s so interesting to read and talk with queer Armenian authors about how they go about writing the culture.
And there’s so many different ways they approach that. So can you talk to me about writing Jaliya and exploring her cultural identities being from Jamaica, but living in the diaspora in the States and then going back home? How did you want to go about writing that?
DeAndra Davis:
Yeah, I had to think a lot about the diaspora, first of all, and how that’s treated because I think it is really, really interesting in that, and it doesn’t happen in all diaspora cultures, but I do think in certain ones there’s this need to separate, first of all, of, well, you are not here, or you didn’t grow up here, or you haven’t been here in a long time, and therefore you are other.
But then if I’m so steeped in that culture, and even if I live elsewhere, I’m othered there too. So who accepts me? And if I don’t feel accepted anywhere, how do I even begin to start to accept myself, especially when you’re a teenager?
And it’s so difficult to figure out where you stand in certain spaces and where you belong in certain spaces. And so I really wanted to think about that first.
And then even worse, if you are a part of a culture that maybe doesn’t accept parts of you that you’re discovering. If you are queer and you’re not in a queer positive culture and you’re not a part of that, and it feels as if you are now further excluded from this culture that feels like such a part of your identity because you’re doing something that is essentially looked down upon by so many people that you identify with, that’s another hurdle. And so I really wanted to figure that out and capture that with Jalilya’s story. But I mean, I can’t pretend like the influences don’t come from somewhere personal.
John Parker:
No, I mean obviously I know the experiences are different between our cultural identities, but singing my song right now, there’s so many themes of that are resonating with me. And can we talk about place for a minute? When folks talk about or write about Armenia, it’s so wildly different, particularly between the diaspora writers and the folks who are living there. And so I’m curious about how you wanted to write about place and write about Jamaica.
DeAndra Davis:
Yes. So I wanted to tackle it in two different ways. I really wanted to tackle it in a way of, I will admit that when you don’t live somewhere actively, it can be easier to romanticize a place than it is to live there all the time. It’s so much easier to romanticize it. But also when you do live somewhere all the time, it can be so easy for you to forget to romanticize it. And so I really wanted to tackle that from both angles, both the angle of Jaliya who comes there, and even though she’s not there all the time, she can romanticize parts of it, but also because she goes there and she’s never gone in a way that’s as a tourist or to just have fun, she’s always there with family.
She realizes that there’s so many things that she hasn’t done and so many things that she hasn’t seen, so many parts of it that she hasn’t experienced. But even for the people who live there also, they realize the same thing that like, “Oh, well, maybe I’ve only ever gone there one time.” The things that we take for granted because it’s around the corner, I equate it sometimes to, I lived in Florida for most of my life. I only just moved away. And it’s so funny because I moved away last year and all of a sudden I’m missing the beach. But when I lived in Florida, ask me how many times I went to the beach.
John Parker:
How many times did you go to the beach?
DeAndra Davis:
I mean, in all the years, probably not more than 10. In all the years, not more than 10, if I’m being honest with you. In all the years. I lived in Florida from the time I was 10, and I didn’t leave until last year. I’m talking this is two decades of living. I’ve probably been to the beach 10 times. So why am I missing the beach? Because I don’t have it anymore. But when I lived there, I was like, “Oh, the beach is there. I can go anytime.” And it’s the way that we do those things, the ways in which you can romanticize something when you’re not there, but also you can forget to see the beauty in the places that you are when you live there.
It’s the same way they talk about people who live in states that have maybe beautiful things like people who lived in New York and have never been to the top of the Empire State Building or never been to one of the beautiful museums, never been to Ellis Island.
So many people, my mom did not go to Ellis Island. My mom never went to the Statue of Liberty because we originally lived in New York. She didn’t do that until after we moved away from New York. Wow. And she’d lived in New York since she was six, moved away in her 30s, didn’t go until she moved away and then went back. And so I really wanted to tackle that and show how place is so different depending on where you’re coming at it from. But we really have to choose the lens through which we’re seeing the places that we’re experiencing.
John Parker:
For sure. I guess I’ll admit, we’re based in Minneapolis, and I’ve been here 15 years in two weeks, and I still haven’t been to the Gay 90s bar yet. And I’m sure people are going to freak out. But it’s always the same thing what you just said. I’m like, “I can go next week. It doesn’t have to be this week that I go to gay…” And now 15 years later, I still haven’t been there. We’ll have to rectify that. I’m sure
DeAndra Davis:
There. Now you have to go.
John Parker:
I know now they’re going to be screaming. The person who hosts the Gaily show hasn’t been to the gay ’90s. Oh, I can’t believe I just admitted that on the air. No. We are talking with DeAndra. Davis about her new novel, The Lovers, The Liars, and Me. I always love a good coming of age novel. DeAndra., talk to us about how you wanted to approach the themes and the ideas of coming of age.
DeAndra Davis:
Yeah. I feel like it’s kind of one of my favorite places to sit in literature because I think that teenagers are going through so much wild transition because you are suddenly a child and being told that you’re being thrown into adulthood. And it’s funny because it’s not saying that we don’t go through transition as adults, but goodness, we have a lot more sense when we have to go through it. They have to go through it with a whole lack of sense and lack of a frontal lobe. And so I really, really love approaching it from a place that’s not sanitized as much as I can.
I like to approach coming of age from a place of hope, but also from a place of things are allowed to be messy. You’re allowed to make bad decisions. You’re allowed to do stupid things.
Because realistically, if we think back to when we were teenagers, we were not making the best decisions.
We were not making the best decisions. I remember I saw a few people who commented on the fact that they were drinking in the novel. And I was like, “Well, I need you to put on a different hat here. First of all, they’re in a different country where the drinking age is lower than the US. The drinking age is 18. So most of them that are there are drinking legally, to be fair, or are extremely close to legal drinking age for Jamaica. So we have to put on a slightly different hat. But also, how many of y’all in America was drinking before y’all was 21? Don’t lie. Don’t lie. Don’t lie.
And so it is one of those things where I’m like, they don’t make good decisions. I still remember when I was writing it, my editor was like,” She hit her head. Should she be drinking? “I’m like,” Of course she shouldn’t. “Does that mean she’s not going to? Of course she shouldn’t. Do you know how many times I’ve done something stupid like that, gotten a head injury, done something like that? And then you know what your friends tell you? Take a shot, you won’t feel it.
John Parker:
Stupid.
DeAndra Davis:
We’re stupid.
John Parker:
Oh, that’s right.
DeAndra Davis:
And so I think I like to approach it from this space of giving yourself permission to not always do the right thing, not always say the right thing, not always make the best decision in the moment. But also, I think it’s a beautiful space to both show kids that they can learn from it and they can come back from it. That’s always my favorite thing to tell people is you can come back from mistakes. And I think that that’s my favorite thing about coming of age is letting them make mistakes and come back from them.
John Parker:
Okay, so without obviously giving us any spoilers, what can you tell us about Jaliya’s connections with Andre and with India?
DeAndra Davis:
Oh, goodness. Is it really a spoiler? Okay. I mean, I feel like it’s not a spoiler because we make it very, very clear from every single promo that there is a love triangle. So there’s a love triangle.
John Parker:
Here for it.
DeAndra Davis:
And I think my favorite thing, if I want to give you a little bit of a taste of what my favorite thing about the connections are, is it was really, really fun to write a dynamic that differed in the sense of, because I think a lot of people were so hung up on it being like, “Oh, well, there’s a girl and a guy.” But for me, it was the difference between someone who has always known you and someone who is just learning you, and the difference in what those kind of connections and loves look like, and that push and pull of almost the comfort of someone who knows your whole history, but also the apprehension of someone who knows your whole history. And then the fun spark of someone who doesn’t know anything about you, but also the apprehension of someone who doesn’t know anything about you.
And so I though that that was just such a fun thing to write and it was such a fun dynamic. And without any spoilers, I think my favorite thing is the more involved Andre becomes and the more that he can see it, the more he’s trying to play on a, I know her and this is my nickname for her. And you don’t know her like that. And I love that because I love any little bits of tension I can force into the narrative.
John Parker:
Well, it is spicy. It is spicy for sure. And you also have a very interesting dynamic between Julia and her cousin Shavon, which I really liked in how you were navigating or putting both of their identities, and I hope it’s not as spoilers like queer awakenings in conversation with each other. Talk to me about that conversation.
DeAndra Davis:
Yeah. So it was difficult because I fought really, really hard. And I do think that Shevaughn and Julia’s scenes I think were scenes that I probably rewrote the most wanting to make sure that I got them right. Because I felt like it was so important to both navigate how it’s similar for them, but also very, very different and how weighty and meaningful it is. But also I always knew that I wanted Jaliya to come from a place of not completely understanding because it isn’t her experience, but also wanting to be respectful, but also in her own way wanting to help. And so everyone is coming from these different places. And I also wanted it to really connect to why Shevaughn has missed her so much and why he was so mad at her.
Because if you have a person that you feel safe with, and we know how important that is in our community to have our safe people, and then they kind of disappear on you, it’s like, how dare you?
How dare you? And so I wanted it to really lean into not just those awakenings and the connection of that, but for it to connect back to, yeah, this is what it’s been like to not have you this whole time. It’s been so hard to not have you because this is everything that I’m dealing with and I’ve had to do it alone. And so I really, really wanted to hint on that because for me, what’s so important in this book is found family. And even though they’re blood related, I still think that I still would count Shevaughn in that kind of found family group that they kind of put together. And I think it was just so important to show the differences in ease and comfort and that need for those people that understand us and give us space to be ourselves. And so it was hard.
Those were hard scenes to write. And I feel like I’m trying to talk around it because I don’t want to spoil anything. But yeah, they were hard scenes to write. But I also think they’re some of my favorite scenes and I just love them and they’re dynamic. Although I will say, to be fair, my main character is not my favorite character in this book.
John Parker:
Wait, who is?
DeAndra Davis:
Dion.
John Parker:
Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
DeAndra Davis:
He’s just so funny. And it’s always funny because I never anticipate, and I think it’s funny because I write the books and people will be like, “How do you not know what characters you’re going to love ahead of time?” But I find that I kind of write my way into discovering them and I write my way into their voices and I write my way into their dynamic. And so it’s typically not until I’m a few chapters in, a couple thousand words in that I’m really getting a grasp on who they are and starting to fall in love with them one by one. Because I really do let my characters be who they are on their own and not what I want them to be, which I know might sound weird because I’m writing them, but really I kind of let them do their own thing.
John Parker:
It is a thing. IÂ mean, you’re a way more accomplished writer than I am. I’m an essayist who’s a baby fiction writer at this point, but it’s always surprised me where I’m writing something and I’m like, “Who are you? Why are you making these decisions? That’s not what I wanted you to do.” And these characters just have a mind of their own. And I’m like, “How do you explain this to people? Yeah, I’m writing this person, but really they’re just telling me who they are and what they want to do. And then I’m just sort of like a stenographer.”
DeAndra Davis:
Exactly. You’re just documenting it for them. And so for me, Dion, he really came out of it just fully being my favorite. And I love everything about his personality. I think he just does not take anything seriously, even when it needs to be taken seriously and always has a quip or a joke or a comeback. And I just love that because I’m like, “I want to be like you. I want to have that level of just wittiness to just handle every situation.” And I just love that.
I think he brings a levity. My favorite scene in the entire book is, and I guess again, no spoilers, but when you guys get to the scene, it’s like after the ice cream shop when they’re dealing with the security guard. And it’s just the most ridiculous thing. And I did not plan it at all. And I was just thinking, how are they going to get out of this?
I was like, “How are they going to get out of this?” And it just ended up being the silliest thing. But it’s also my favorite thing because I’m like, “What do you mean you guys are wailing singing and just being ridiculous in this man’s office?” And he is just like, “Get out of here because I’m not about to deal with y’all. Get out of here.”
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The book is The Lovers, the Liars and Me. You can get it everywhere that you buy your books now. You can connect with DeAndra at deandradavis.com and you can find her on almost all of the socials by searching for @deandrawrites.
